Using Pentatonic and Blues Scales in one song to Improvise….

[Michael Bishop]

Hi Johnny,
I was playing with some licks/riffs for my Chicago Blues type of Instrumental on Alto Sax that I’m working on and I’m playing on Alto in the key of B, so I have a chord progression of B, E and F…the track is in the key of D (I think I e-mailed the track to you). I know how you teach in Killer Blues with the Blues Scale how we use the 1-3-5-b7 of the scale that outlines the chord, but for this project I wanted to starting expanding on things and start using Pentatonic Scales too, and not just the Blues Scales only…in other words using both of these scales to Improvise with in one song sounds…that’s acceptable to use/play isn’t it? I think I actually did a little of that in my Blues Brothers Instrumental, but can’t exactly remember. I was noticing how in some places on the track, using a 1-3-5 and then 6, coming back down to the 5th, etc.. actually created more tension/relieve that tension than a 1-3-5-b7 does…but again this is only in some places. But my thought was by expanding on what I’ve been learning and using both of these Scales in one track/song would add a lot to it and make it even more “colorful”.
I actually ordered a tuner from Amazon yesterday and it’s on its way…I had downloaded one from online but then I started getting all kinds of pop-ups on my cpu and was afraid that someone may be trying to install malware on my cpu, so I just deleted it and ordered a good tuner from amazon. It would be cool if you would think about maybe making a few more videos to expand on tuning correctly…seems like there’s more to proper tuning than just making sure the MP is in the right place; that’s what I got out of your video? Again, hardly anyone else talks about anything else other than just MP placement on the cork. I think for my Blues Brothers Instrumental I had the MP too far in because it sounds kind of “harsh, sharp”. But no worries, I’ll start using a tuner v.s. A440 hz videos only and reupload it..I’ve worked too hard to understand how to start Improvising with this kind of music to leave a project “abandoned” LOL

[john]

Yes those notes will all work. the chord progression is B, E and F# I’m assuming you meant that and not F.
I’ll think about more lessons on tuning but the last one I did is pretty complete from what I remember. have another look at it and let me know what isn’t clear.

[Michael Bishop]

LOL, yes F# is the 5 chord….bad typing on my part as always. If you don’t seem it necessary to make anything else on tuning, the question that I had, just for the sake of a mental note for myself–can’t remember if you mentioned this in your video–was I was thinking that Improper embouchure can definately be a problem when it comes to tuning, right? A tuner, proper MP placement, a reed in good condition, are all definately important, but someone just can’t necessarily “blame” it on those things, correct? I was just wondering because I think that sometimes that may be the tendency when the real problem is something we, ourselves as players, aren’t doing right. Our Saxophones have to be in good condition, no leaks, good cork, etc. no question about it–and using Saxophones with a leak/needing work is no fun to play with and have to be serviced, but if there aren’t any issues in that regard, then it could boil down to we, ourselves, aren’t doing something right.

Yeah, I feel like I’m starting to a good feel for the Blues Scales/use them to express myself and don’t have any problems with Pentatonic Scales, so my thought was to start using both scales in a single song because I think it would add so much v.s. using only one type of scale. I can’t remember any examples right off the top of my head, but I’m almost positive I’ve actually heard players like King Curtis, for example, using both Scales when playing the Blues like with Jack Depree. Now that I think about it, the song I’m working on of “I heard It Through the Grapevine” (about 1/2 done with it..talk about a SMOKIN’ Saxophone song!) actually does just that…it uses both scales. LOL, that just hit me just now while typing, funny. In any case..none of this will do any good without the help of a tuner…A440 videos just weren’t enough for me.

[Michael Bishop]

I was thinking, which I forgot to mention, that I think it’s great when we learn some of these songs like I was just mentioning and it’s good to take the time, not just to “memorize” all the notes, but take a closer look/analyze what they’re playing, listen to how the play it, to see exactly what those guys like King Curtis are doing in the songs that they play–I think there’s a lot to be gained from that…like how you break down the Brown Sugar Sax solo in your book; not just in your videos, but also in reading about it in the ebook itself. A few days ago, I had to repurchase “I was made to Love Her” because I’m going to start learning it soon and I realized that I had lost it when my cpu crashed a few months back and never replaced it….you helped me recover enough files as it was so no worries. I had read on a reply you put on your video to a comment I made about how I was getting ready to learn this song and you mentioned something along the lines that there’s a lot in that song that goes hand-in-hand with what I’m learning in Killer Blues right now? Man…that Motown music is GOOD stuff–it really gets everyone going here in the South! 🙂

[john]

You’re right about not blaming it on things like lig, cork, reeds…
you are playing some good notes and getting a solid tone out now. the intonation thing is just something you will have to work on going forward. when you have a tuner you will start to zero in on it because it will let you know exactly where your pitch is at…once you find it and are able to keep it there you will feel the difference when playing along to the tracks.

[Michael Bishop]

I guess we’re all different because for some people they’re able to do things like tune a Saxophone properly just from using the videos like the A440 hz, and I would use those videos…I’m most certainly aware/always have been aware of the need to tune everything properly. But for others, like myself, that alone wasn’t enough–need something that will help me be more exact/precise like a tuner. So there’s nothing I should be feel bad about/ashamed of just because I’m the kind of person who requires a little bit more extra “help, assistance” in this regard? Maybe there just something that my brain/mind didn’t connect with from rely solely on a video for something like tuning? I just think it’s funny how I can need a little bit extra help/be a little bit mentally slow in this regard, while at the same time having no problems memorizing songs/sheet music and play a song from Memory? But for other people, it can go the other way around–having really good, acute ears/have what is called “perfect pitch” (I don’t have that) their minds remembers sounds so good are remembering what they hear, but then have a hard time remembering things they see visually? I just think that’s something when we look at how everyone is different on these types of things; everyone having their strong points and other areas where we require more help? At the very least, I am starting to get a good understanding on how this kind of playing works, but still obviously have a long way to go. I’ll re-upload this Instrumental again to make sure I’ve got tuning of a Saxophone down correctly before moving on to anything else/other uploads. Can’t just ‘ignore’ this thing about tuning.

[Anonymous]

Michael – you raise some good points there.

I’m not pitch perfect,never have been, never will be – in my case,
i started playing the guitar at age 15, back in the 70’s i didn’t have a tuner,
didn’t have internet, didn’t have a cd in the back of a music book to tune to,
i had to tune the guitar to my parents piano (which wasn’t properly in tune).

Tuning a guitar is just as bad as tuning a sax. With a sax you only tune it
by adjusting the mouthpiece position, with a guitar you have to tune 6 strings
separately (equivalent to 6 mouthpieces being tuned).

I had a cheap guitar (warped neck), and no matter how well the strings were in tune,
various notes wouldn’t be in tune (problems with warped neck, frets not set correctly etc..)
I played my guitar on and off for over 42 years, so in MY case, i’ve been practising tuning
for a very long time, so that’s why for me tuning is probably a lot easier.

With my guitar, i play it for an hour, and sometimes i have to re-tune it, i can hear
a string go out of tune, the reason i can hear a string go out of tune is not because i am
pitch perfect – its because with a guitar when you play a chord, as soon as one note (related to that string)
goes out of tune, the chord sounds sour!

With a sax when you are playing solo, with no backing, there’s nothing your mind can compare your sound
with another sound (which other strings on a guitar will show up) so it is harder to distinguish being in tune.

When i play with a backing track, i can tell right from the start that my sax doesn’t sound in tune with
the backing track – i put that down to years of tuning on the guitar. So i’m probably doing what i do on
the guitar with the sax comparing my sound with the backing track sound.

Different notes being out of tune on a sax is a totally different, to the sax not being tuned up.

My approach to learning the sax was slightly different to yours, the 1st 6 months of my sax learning
(blame it on my sax teacher) was spent on intonation, he wasn’t interested in rhythm (getting me to play in time)
which if you look back on the blogg is what everyone commented on when i started uploading, so now my main problem now
is rhythm (playing in time). My teacher was more concerned with playing in tune to start off, i guess he just couldn’t
stand listening to bad sounds? all day long from various kids.

You need to get into playing in a band, or better still playing alongside another instrument player, another sax player
would be ideal.

When i played in a Jazz band recently, when you sit next to another sax player, and you both blow the same note,
in a simple song, you get a real nice feeling when you hear yourself in tune with the other player (its like riding
a wave) – this is something you have to experience and will experience.
The moment you are wrong note it, it really does sound SOUR, and you don’t feel good about yourself.

The only other thing about backing tracks, is hopefully the ones you’ve got are tuned correctly,
i know some bands deliberately down tune their instruments on some songs to get special sound,
so you would have difficulty tuning to their recordings, but that would be very rare.

[Anonymous]

forgot to say, when i tune my sax up, i tune it up to low F# & mid F# with a keyboard
sound, i do look at the tuner needle to see how badly out the tuning is.

I have 2 pencil marks on the mouthpiece, about 4cm apart as i’ve found my sax
has always been in between those 2 marks, so if i’m out playing somewhere and
i haven’t got my tuner i just set it midway between the 2, seems to work for me.

The only other problem i have is, after i have tuned up, my Low c to Mid C notes
are reasonably in tune, but my mid D to High D are all always off on the tuner,
i asked the repair guy about that, and his response was its quite common with student/
intermediate models of sax – looks like you pays for whats you gets?

[Anonymous]

lol – meant to say 4 mm apart, not 4cm apart – just in case anyone does read my post!

[Michael Bishop]

Hey JB–great points you make, lots of experience you got in tuning for sure. You mention that I need to start playing with a band/other musicians…..that’s what kind of surprised me about me being out-of-tune for this upload, because for the past 5 weeks I’ve been getting together with other guitar, keyboards, and drummers every since I nailed my audition and not one of them have said I was out of tune. We get together every Tuesday and Thursday night. When I got the audition and will have my first-ever live performance on Nov.14 for a talent show, these were guys who were there at the audition doing their thing too and that’s how we connected with each other and just started a little network or sorts, will see what happens as time goes along. For my Improvisation in this Blues Brothers Instrumental, there’s a good number of licks/riffs that I was able to create simply by playing with them…..as well as being an “honest thief” and stole some licks/riffs from watching other players LOL Seeing how these guys have never said anything to me about being out of tune, it’s possible that I just pushed the MP back too far because it sounds pretty ‘harsh, rough’ listening to it. We get together again tonight so we’ll see how it goes. In any case, I’m just glad this happened now for a blog upload so that I can start being really aware of it and use the tuner each and every time before a practice session, an upload, etc.. v.s. it happening to me later if the time comes that I did play on a band….or imagine that happening for my live performance on Nov.14 in front of everyone….OUCH that would hurt! I got another audition coming in December for the annual river fest to be held here next year, the biggest event held in the state of Arkansas; which I was invited to audition for that too; imagine if being out of tune happened then….now that would really hurt bad LOL. In any case, with this tuner coming I do believe I will be just fine 🙂

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